Would you rate Tolkien as a writer?

Fair enough. And as for the Silmarillion, I think you nailed it. I found it (as I've said elsewhere) tough going first time 'round, but then I was quite young. It's become one of my favorite books since. And as for Peake -- I all-too-often have a desire to bang my head against a wall when I hear people talk about the Titus books being too slow, not enough story, etc. Those are lovely, rich books that repay many readings. Some things simply get better the more you experence them; Peake is definitely one.

As for your comments on Tolkien -- I'm not sure I agree, but very well reasoned. (Though you're right; his writing isn't brilliant; but I think it's quite good.) And the more I hear about Mieville, the more I really feel I got a wrong steer when I first heard of him.
 
j. d. worthington said:
As for your comments on Tolkien -- I'm not sure I agree, but very well reasoned. (Though you're right; his writing isn't brilliant; but I think it's quite good.) And the more I hear about Mieville, the more I really feel I got a wrong steer when I first heard of him.
You can run but you can't hide...;)

I'm probably more with Brys on this one (surprise, surprise..:p ) There's plenty of authors whose prose I enjoy much more than Tolkien's but I think one of his strenghts lay in his ability as a storyteller and as Brys refers to the obvious depth of worldbuilding which to this day I don't believe has ever been equalled. He's certainly a major influence on post war writers of the Genre no arguments there in spite of what people's personal feeling are on the merit of his writing.

I guess the bottom line really is whether a story and its characterizations are engaging or not independent of the perceived quality of the prose but as I'm something of a 'word junkie' I do enjoy books that both demonstrate for me what is great prose and a compelling storyline to boot.

My 2C...
 
Sheesh! Okay, okay. Between this and the Mother's Day fiasco, we "colonials" are likely to have to fight yet another war with you folks. (Wait ... maybe I shouldn't give anybody any ideas.....)
 
You would lose this time :D

remember, the Britisch SAS actually teaching your Seals how to fight :D

don't flame me!
 
Such a great debate.
I would say he's great, he started a trend that many have followed.
In retrospect it's like looking back at an old car and either thinking, that had class, or it is a banger.

Of course writing has changed but you have to give JRR much respect for what he did.
 
Two points;

1) The Cronicles of Narnia have only recently been deposed (By the Harry Potter phenomenon) As the most popular children's books ever. Tolkein's dislike of them was due to his legendary hatred of allegory, he and Lewis remained inseperable friends.

2) Tolkein started and almost finished the modern market for heroic fantasy in one fell swoop. Many American writers have attempted to emulate him only to fail miserably ( Terry brooks, George R.R>Martin et al) in fact the only Yank to write anything like decent fantasy is David Eddings who, after a spirited beginning, is now struggling to put together anything remotely worthwhile. Do I rate TolKein ? Read the Lord of the Rings and then that glorified body-count A Game of Thrones. There is no comparisson Tolkein can write, Martin can get published.
 
I personally think Tolkien is an excellent storyteller but not such a good 'writer' if that makes any sense at all! His VPs are all over the place which I found a bit confusing in places (but then maybe I'm just a dumb ass!)
The actual story of The Lord of the Rings is brilliant, one of the best ever, but the way in which it's written is a bit . . . off? Maybe?
 
I think part of the problem is that there are actually different authorial voices in Tolkien's work, especially (because it's all in one work) in LotR. There's the light, even comic style of the earlier chapters (with some dark patches, such "The Return of the Shadow" or "The Old Forest"), there's the blending of old and new in the chapters in Breek, the journey to Weathertop and then to the Fords of Bruinen; a contrast between the almost pedestrian, nineteenth travelogue style used for description from the hobbits' point of view contrasted with glimmerings of the "high style" in Rivendell; the growing use of that "high" or antique style as we get further into the older kingdoms, the history of the realms and the war and its causes, etc.; and then a shift back toward a more colloquial style as we go back toward Hobbiton. All of this embedded in a very dry, professorial tone dealing with the histories, languages, etc. (which really are an important part of this book and shouldn't be left aside unless you're just in it for the story proper; if you're wanting to know what the writer was doing, read the preface and the appendices; they put the book in the perspective of history, which is what Tolkien intended). This is why I think Tolkien was actually a very good writer -- he used a wide variety of "voices", but all modulated through the eyes of his main characters, the hobbits; and even there one can see shifts, as if part is written by Bilbo but altered or updated slightly by Frodo, and then others as written by Frodo but having gone through various redactions, and finished by Sam -- and all brought down by writers who copied and in the process made slight, subtle changes as with any such history; and finally rendered from the languages of the time into modern English by Tolkien himself; so we have a vast number of removes: Tolkien>old historians>older (official) mss>Peregrin (as Thain)>Sam>Frodo>Bilbo, and probably a few steps I left out. Now, that takes enormous skill and a great deal of effort and thought and careful choice of words and phrases (hence, since Tolkien is "translating" for modern audiences, we have the bizarre image of an express train in "A Long-Expected Party"). One is free to like or dislike (I personally used to find the earlier parts of the book rather annoying, until I began to realize how the voices changed to suit the "originals", etc., and then began to be really surprised at how well it was done), but if one looks at what he was attempting, it's difficult to deny that he did an exceptionally fine job with an almost impossible task. Most writers today esches this sort of "chinese-box" structure and simply use either a first-person narrator or omniscient pov; this sort of thing takes immensely more effort and is slippery as the very devil! (Remember, too, that Tolkien's profession was dealing with philology, the study of literary texts -- especially ancient -- and establishing their traditions and transmission, by use of historical and comparative linguistics; Tolkien was extremely sensitive to nuances in prose rhythm and style and what they tell of the culture and person(s) who created them; and he brought that to bear when writing his story. This is something he shared with Lovecraft who, though coming to such a study on his own rather than academically, was very aware of such things, and tended to choose his words carefully for very subtle coloring and to convey nuances in the narrator's -- or occasionally, in his third-person or omniscient narratives, his main characters' -- emotions and psychology. It's a much older and more carefully structured way of writing, and completely at odds with most of twentieth-century literature's immediacy of effect; but it allows for more depth and texture and considerably more interpretability.)

The same is true, to a lesser degree, with some of his other writings. The Silmarillion, of course, he never completed nor polished; the book of that name was put together by his son Christopher from writings spanning 1914-15 to just before Tolkien's death in the 1970s; and so the style is by no means as homogenous as Tolkien would have liked; even so, it tends to be more of the "high style" than LotR (and certainly more so than The Hobbit, which was written with a much different view in mind); but even within it, there are various literary and "historical" "traditions" within the "transmission" of the work(s).

In one sense, Tolkien did finish the sort of thing he did -- he didn't actually start it, it had been done by older writers from the 1740s on, if not before -- but it's unlikely we'll ever see anyone else put that kind of thought into that large a variety of factors before putting pen to paper (or fingers to keyboard, as the case may be).

In other words, Tolkien simply wasn't modern at all; he was, perhaps, the last remnant of a much older tradition (as Hawthorne was of his); and that difference may be what throws people off at times.
 
Tolkien's "The Hobbit" and "LOTR" are quality examples of good storytelling. They both read aloud well, offer character development and scenic descriptions that draw the landscape for you. People want to read these books, or hear these books read, even non-readers. Because of this, and my own enjoyment when I read and re-read these books, I say that Tolkien rates very high on the scale of talented authors.
 
I absolutely love LOTR, and I think it is wonderfully written (despite the few parts where it drags on) but for some reason I have never been able to get past the first 20 pages in The Hobbit....I don't know why, but the beginning is just so boring when all those dwarves show up at Bilbo's house, and I can't seem to make myself read past that part. So I think LOTR is one of the best books ever written, but nothing else I've tried to read of his has stuck with me.
 
The Ace said:
Two points;


2) Tolkein started and almost finished the modern market for heroic fantasy in one fell swoop. Many American writers have attempted to emulate him only to fail miserably ( Terry brooks, George R.R>Martin et al) in fact the only Yank to write anything like decent fantasy is David Eddings who, after a spirited beginning, is now struggling to put together anything remotely worthwhile. Do I rate TolKein ? Read the Lord of the Rings and then that glorified body-count A Game of Thrones. There is no comparisson Tolkein can write, Martin can get published.

Martin is now "imitating" Tolkien? He's writing in the same subgenre and has low magic use, and after that, the similarities end. Martin pursues an unromantic vision of the medieval world, complete with a realistic, entirely believable cast of characters, who can and do die, the plot is unpredictable and the pacing after the very beginning is fast and consistent. Tolkien by contrast creates an idealised, sentimental, romantic world, where on the whole his main characters cannot die and with a few exceptions, they are archetypal, and the plot is overly simplistic and predictable, with huge variations in the pacing. But Tolkien is saved because he is a master at worldbuilding. But these very problems with his writing are what makes him popular.
Michael Moorcock said:
What makes Tolkien the mass market success that Peake is not is that Tolkien can be smoothly assimilated into the culture. His stereotypes slide easily into the world of popular fiction

I would say the opposite to you - Martin can write, Tolkien can get published. Tolkien's likely to remain the more popular - he writes comforting escapist fantasy, and he does it well with a huge degree of depth to his world. Martin writes much more challenging, darker fantasy and it's quite surprising that he's managed to achieve such a level of popularity as he has.

Read the Lord of the Rings and then that glorified body-count A Game of Thrones. There is no comparisson

The body count in aGoT is not glorified in any way - the deaths are not heroic, they are not tragic - often they are unjust, meaningless - in the same way they are in reality. Medieval Britain was not a nice place. Martin understands this. Tolkien was writing a new piece of mythology - realism in any sense was not one of his concerns. You are correct on one thing though - you say there is no comparison between LotR and aGoT. Absolutely true. A Game of Thrones is the first volume in a series, while Lord of the Rings is an entire series.

They both read aloud well, offer character development and scenic descriptions that draw the landscape for you.

I'm a little unsure about the character development point - for some of them this is true, but for others it's too simplistic. As for reading aloud well - on occasion, is all I can say. Certain parts are not well written IMO - the Council of Elrond for example in the Fellowship of the Ring. His descriptions are competent, but not spectacular.
 
Brys-
Your criticism is taken in stride, however the point of a book is to be read, and read often- characters make you do this, hence my opinion that character development is well offered in the hobbit books. Read "The Hobbit" out loud to a group of twelve year olds and see the drawings they create from the descriptions.
 
Having said quite a bit in Tolkien's defense on this thread, and though I personally find The Hobbit quite charming (though it gets much better toward the end, as the style becomes less aimed at children and there's more of that feeling of grimness and even tragedy at points), I will say that this one isn't for everyone. The deliberate talking-down tone puts a lot of people off; though I think I see it in a different light than most with this particular book, I'll be honest enough to say it's rationalizing on my part, and that this really is a flaw in the book as a piece of literature; even the best-written children's books tend to avoid this, usually.
 
Sorry, Brys has slightly misunderstood my point. A Game of Thrones,was the title in the series I could remember, but I clearly remember Littlefinger, in his one decent act, shoving that moronic bitch, " My sweet baby," into the chasm and blaming the minstrel, and Cerci Lannister brought back from the dead identifying one of the Freys who murdered her and her son. Yes, characters can die, but everyone who invokes the reader's empathy ? My description of the series reflected my view that Martin (who, admittedley I do not rate highly) seems to be relentlessly pursuing a body count and as long as there's plenty of gore, the story can go hang. Yes, he's describing a harsh world and Ser Gregor Clegane is definitely a more believable character than Sir Lancelot, I have no quarrel with that. Heroes die, I can accept that. Young Idealists and trusted retainers get stabbed in the back, But all of them ? At least Tolkein lets you escape harsh reality for a while.
 
Oops, sorry again. It wasn't Cerci Lannister but Lady Stark. One was wise,strong and a devoted wife and mother, the other was an incestuous, murdering megalomaniac. Guess which Martin clobbered. I noticed from an interview that Martin was still working on "A Storm of Ice and Fire," maybe he's painted himself into a corner by clobbering all his potential heroes.
 
I would rate him effective. If you read The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, or his Unfinished Tales, you would see why. The Lord of the Rings contained some of his worse prose, and if you only judge him with that, then you are judging without ample evidence.

His books are the only ones I think I can read orally without feeling strange.

Though he uses symbolism and psychology poorly, it doesn't mean he's a bad writer. In many other points he makes up for lack of intellectual provoking ideas.

He is one of my favorites for all those reasons above.
 
The best writers are the ones who make characters who are real. Ones you could put into almost every situation and the readers would be able to imagine it easily. Of course I'm not saying they're predictable, quite the opposite, people surprise each other regulary. But a character you know and respect, even though they're a figment of the author's imagination.
The descriptions, flowing stories, the dangers and trials. They're all to get the characters through their experiences and growth.
Tolkien's characters really jumped out at me as real people who were being described in the pages of a book. Long before the films I could see Frodo's expressions, imagine Sam's honest laughter, and feel gollum's greed. Amazing author.

Any other thoughts in this direction?
 
In my opinion I would rate his as an above average writer for many of the reasons give above. He made the characters connect with the reader and involved the reader in the story and dragged them into the middle of the story.

I have to admit I have never finished LOTR (it is next on my list) but I adored the Hobbit.
 
carrie221 said:
In my opinion I would rate his as an above average writer for many of the reasons give above. He made the characters connect with the reader and involved the reader in the story and dragged them into the middle of the story.

I have to admit I have never finished LOTR (it is next on my list) but I adored the Hobbit.
LOTR is widely acknowledged to be one of the best books ever written. To describe Tolkien as an 'above average' writer is like describing Bill Gates as an above average entrepreneur. Carrie, I urge you to read LOTR in it's entirety. The descriptive passages are not to everyone's taste but the prosaic language that he uses is a big part of what makes it a great book. Tolkien had an understanding of language that was second to none and it was his love of languages, not just his interest in mythology, that inspired him to write it in the first place.
 

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