What do Suppose Would happen if Both The Ark of The Covenant and The Holy Grail Were Found?

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BAYLOR

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If Those two religious Relics were found what do you think the possible end result(s) might be ? A age peace or an religious war and strife ? And who if anyone might stand to lose if these two items came to light ?And outside religious sources what do we really know about these item and what kind of historic value do you think they would have ?
 
Any claim of a significant religious object being found I would imagine would be followed with decades of research, resulting in frequent claims and counter claims. In archaeological terms, the arc is merely a carrying box, and the grail is either a plain cup, or a symbol for the bloodline of Jesus, depending upon your sources.
 
Brian Turner said:
Any claim of a significant religious object being found I would imagine would be followed with decades of research, resulting in frequent claims and counter claims. In archaeological terms, the arc is merely a carrying box, and the grail is either a plain cup, or a symbol for the bloodline of Jesus, depending upon your sources.
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I agree. There were decades of research, and scientific testing, on the Shroud of Turin and I still cannot tell you what the consensus of opinion about it is. I think they decided by carbon dating that the cloth wasn't old enough to have been wrapped around the body of Jesus, but are unable to explain how it was made. So, don't expect any immediate answers to the authenticity for other religious artifacts.
 
The "grail" isn't real, it's a mix of Mediaeval and earlier legend that has been tacked on to the last Supper.
Might the cup in the last supper be found? Maybe, but no way to know as @Brian Turner says, it's a very ordinary cup . It's not the "Grail", that is a fiction, or perhaps a bronze age or iron age "Celtic" artefact with legend attached. Making it be a Christian story /artefact may be quite "late".

The Ark of the Covenant is more problematic. It was real. But it may not actually be lost at all. The items kept in it are interesting though.

Neither item would have any bearing on peace or strife.
 
Ray McCarthy said:
The "grail" isn't real, it's a mix of Mediaeval and earlier legend that has been tacked on to the last Supper.
Might the cup in the last supper be found? Maybe, but no way to know as @Brian Turner says, it's a very ordinary cup . It's not the "Grail", that is a fiction, or perhaps a bronze age or iron age "Celtic" artefact with legend attached. Making it be a Christian story /artefact may be quite "late".

The Ark of the Covenant is more problematic. It was real. But it may not actually be lost at all. The items kept in it are interesting though.

Neither item would have any bearing on peace or strife.
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two possible locations for the Ark Ethiopia or it could be still be in Jerusalem.
 
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BAYLOR said:
tow possible locations for the Ark Ethiopia or it could be still be in Jerusalem.
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While I agree that it is said that the Ark of the Covenant is being keep in Axum in Eithiopia, it's clear from the reproductions that are in every Ethiopian church (and many examples in the British museum) that it is nothing like the description given in the Bible. Admittedly, we are not allowed to view the 'real' one, so there is an air of mystery about it...

As for it still being in Jerusalem, I suppose there is a possibility it might be there - but that is based on the fact that it was just said to vanish after the destruction of the temple and therefore some people have just assumed that it was hidden. I'm sure there is a load of treasure in that ancient city - however good luck trying to dig out anything in one of the most sensitive cultural and religious spots in the world!
 
Venusian Broon said:
While I agree that it is said that the Ark of the Covenant is being keep in Axum in Eithiopia, it's clear from the reproductions that are in every Ethiopian church (and many examples in the British museum) that it is nothing like the description given in the Bible. Admittedly, we are not allowed to view the 'real' one, so there is an air of mystery about it...

As for it still being in Jerusalem, I suppose there is a possibility it might be there - but that is based on the fact that it was just said to vanish after the destruction of the temple and therefore some people have just assumed that it was hidden. I'm sure there is a load of treasure in that ancient city - however good luck trying to dig out anything in one of the most sensitive cultural and religious spots in the world!
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The Muslim authorities won't allow any digging under the Dome of the Rock. I find it curious that the Israeli authorities have abided by that prohibition, it's that's the case.
 
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BAYLOR said:
The Muslim authorities won't allow any digging under the Dome of the Rock. I find it curious that the Israeli authorities have abided by that prohibition, it's that't the case.
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Well considering that the Muslim authorities own the land, surely they have the right to decide what happens on it. Sure, the Israeli's could evict them from the third holiest site in Islam...but that seems a great way to instantly stoke up masses of problems.

My understanding anyway is that most Israeli's are happy to leave things as they are - it's is only a few fundamentalist sects of Jews and certain strains of Evangelical Christianity that want to move the Muslims and build another temple of Solomon. Perhaps those that own the Dome of the Rock might be concerned that digging it up might reveal bits of the of the second temple and spur these people on.
 
Venusian Broon said:
Well considering that the Muslim authorities own the land, surely they have the right to decide what happens on it. Sure, the Israeli's could evict them from the third holiest site in Islam...but that seems a great way to instantly stoke up masses of problems.

My understanding anyway is that most Israeli's are happy to leave things as they are - it's is only a few fundamentalist sects of Jews and certain strains of Evangelical Christianity that want to move the Muslims and build another temple of Solomon. Perhaps those that own the Dome of the Rock might be concerned that digging it up might reveal bits of the of the second temple and spur these people on.
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It might be that if the Ark were found there, then likely there would be a calls to rebuild the The Temple and that would cause a world or problems. The evangelicals have this notion that the the return of the Ark means the Second coming is at hand.

From a historical standpoint, the recovery of the Ark would be interesting as a link to the past. :)

And contrary to popular myth and Raiders of the Lost Ark The Pharaoh Shushonk never got anywhere near the Ark.
 
BAYLOR said:
And contrary to popular myth and Raiders of the Lost Ark The Pharaoh Shushonk never got anywhere near the Ark.
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NO! Raiders of the Lost Ark and the sequels are all real and based on fact, it is, it is, it is. It must be :)

Well apart from the fourth one. :D
 
BAYLOR said:
It might be that if the Ark were found there, then likely there would be a calls to rebuild the The Temple
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No, other way around.
If the Temple was rebuilt (very unlikely and there are many difficulties even if Islam didn't object), then the Ark will turn up. Though whether real or not might be hard to establish.
 
Venusian Broon said:
My understanding anyway is that most Israeli's are happy to leave things as they are - it's is only a few fundamentalist sects of Jews and certain strains of Evangelical Christianity that want to move the Muslims and build another temple of Solomon.
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Absolutely true. The mainline Orthodox, Conservative and Reformed view is that it CAN'T be rebuilt. Most Israelis are not religious and don't want it either.
It's really only a very strange minority Jewish sect and a much larger bunch of ill-informed US Evangelicals (that are also a minority).
 
Venusian Broon said:
NO! Raiders of the Lost Ark and the sequels are all real and based on fact, it is, it is, it is. It must be :)

Well apart from the fourth one. :D
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Im one of the few that found the 4th film to be the most credible and historically accurate. :whistle:
 
Ray McCarthy said:
The items kept in it are interesting though.
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What items, Ray? I'm guessing the Ten Commandments but I may be influenced by having heard too many crank theories.

Brian Turner said:
Any claim of a significant religious object being found I would imagine would be followed with decades of research, resulting in frequent claims and counter claims.
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Reminds me of the ossuary of James, Jesus' brother.
 
Nechtan said:
I'm guessing the Ten Commandments
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Yes, at least that.

The Ark also contained Aaron's rod, a jar of manna, and the first Torah scroll as written by Moses. But the first of the Books of Kings says that at the time of King Solomon, the Ark contained only the two Tablets of the Law.

However ...

Wikipedia says:
In Rabbinic literature, the final disposition of the Ark is disputed. Some rabbis hold that it must have been carried off to Babylon, while others hold that it must have been hidden lest it be carried off into Babylon and never brought back. A late 2nd century rabbinic work known as the Tosefta states the opinions of these rabbis that Josiah, the king of Judah, stored away the Ark, along with the jar of manna, and a jar containing the holy anointing oil, the rod of Aaron which budded and a chest given to Israel by the Philistines. This was said to have been done in order to prevent their being carried off into Babylon as had already happened to the other vessels. Rabbi Eliezer and Rabbi Shimon, in the same rabbinic work, purport that the Ark was, in fact, taken into Babylon. Rabbi Yehudah, dissenting, says that the Ark was stored away in its own place, meaning, somewhere on the Temple Mount.
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I was informed that it's in a safe place and will only reappear in the extremely unlikely event of the Temple being rebuilt.
 
Ray McCarthy said:
I was informed that it's in a safe place and will only reappear in the extremely unlikely event of the Temple being rebuilt.
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Must be in Roslyn chapel then, along with: The Holy Grail, the body of Mary (and possibly some of Jesus' descendants), Jesus' actual head, the treasure of the Knights Templars (not including already mentioned items) and the last ever edible British Rail sandwich.

On top of that, I've...erm enjoyed, a few theories that state that Roslyn was constructed as a 'temple of Solomon' i.e the layout and plan of the chapel follows some old lore on the place. Hence one could say the temple has been 'rebuilt'. However I'm guessing that the die-hard third temple rebuilders would only accept something on Temple Mount itself.
 
Venusian Broon said:
However I'm guessing that the die-hard third temple rebuilders would only accept something on Temple Mount itself.
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Yes.
Oddly even Islam expect the Ark of covenant to turn up. But with gold stripped it would just look like a rectangular box.

Jeremiah's Book claims in the future no-one will speak of it and it won't be needed.

The Catholic Church claims it's been replaced by Mary (there is a crazy logic to the idea, but I think it's a doctrine they should forget.)
 
Ray McCarthy said:
Jeremiah's Book claims in the future no-one will speak of it and it won't be needed.
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Well he's been proved wrong!

But then he might mean that it's really lost its power, so it just becomes an old box, I mean wasn't it able to defeat whole enemy armies in its heyday? (Clearly it had lost its charge when the Babylonians came and either they had to hide it or it was taken.)

Ray McCarthy said:
The Catholic Church claims it's been replaced by Mary (there is a crazy logic to the idea, but I think it's a doctrine they should forget.)
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Having delved a little deeply into all sorts of esoteric stuff as well as mainstream religion with issues like the virgin birth and the status of Mary beforehand means (because I do find it all fascinating) crazy logic sits well with me, or at least I enjoy the chase of trying to follow it up impossible hills and impassable rivers...
 
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