Gandalf vs. Witch-King and Sauron???

Darth Angelus

Darth Angelus

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Hi! Been a while since I posted here. I just thought of something I would consider a fairly massive inconsistency in portrayal of the magical strengths of characters in Jackson's movies.

Gandalf the White vs. Witch-King in Return of the King (Extended Edition)...



Gandalf the Grey vs. Sauron (presumably) in The Hobbit II...

(About halfway through the video)


This makes very little sense, to my knowledge of Tolkien's works. Witch-King, the wraith of a king of men with a ring of power, wins a magical struggle against the greater version of Gandalf, significantly more easily than his master, Sauron, who actually has to struggle a little bit with the lesser version of Gandalf.
I know the event in the first video, at least, is not included in Tolkien's own texts. But heck, it was probably added for movie plot convenience.
 
The Necromancer (the Hobbit) is a umm "smaller"? version of Sauron, he has not yet regained his power - he is a shadow of his former and later self. He has not yet been surrounded by his wraiths and all the evil. He is building himself up and this stronger Sauron is the one we are introduced to in LOTR. The witch king is the top wraith and he is given power by Sauron and the whole evil is everywhere thing as well as the fact that he used to be the sort og head king of the kings so was powerful in his own right.

Not entirely sure that was well phrased or explained but it is late and I am about to go to bed! :)
 
Be that as it may, The Hobbit takes place in the years 2941 and 2942 of Third Age. LotR takes place in year 3019 of TA. That means that in The Hobbit, Sauron has had nearly 97.5% of the time to recover from his defeat when Isildur cut off the ring at the end of the Second Age.
It is very unlikely that Sauron's mystical powers would not have recovered beyond Witch-King level by then.

Peter Jackson's portrayal in RotK has no basis in Tolkien's works, and is frankly very unlikely, given the nature of Gandalf and the Witch-King. The Nazgûl may look scary, but their mystical powers are fairly clearly below Maia, even clad as wizards. It is just that they aren't allowed to use their powers indiscriminately.
Now, Witch-King may have been pumped up by Sauron. But in that case it is the guy being pumped up by Sauron vs. Sauron himself.
 
In RotK (the book), the gates of Minas Tirith are shattered by the battering ram Grond and the Witch-King rides into the city. When confronted by Gandalf old Witchy seems completed unfazed - it's only the arrival of the Rohirrim which causes him to withdraw, as they're obviously the greater threat.
 
reiver33 said:
In RotK (the book), the gates of Minas Tirith are shattered by the battering ram Grond and the Witch-King rides into the city. When confronted by Gandalf old Witchy seems completed unfazed - it's only the arrival of the Rohirrim which causes him to withdraw, as they're obviously the greater threat.
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And Gandalf seem completely unfazed, as well. The confrontation Jackson shows never takes place.

My point was that Jackson would have us believe that Witch-King could beat Gandalf in a magical struggle more easily than his master Sauron could.
If any of the two should win easily vs. Gandalf, it is Sauron, not Witch-King. The likely situation is, Witch-King wields Sauron's power second hand.

So I don't follow this logic...
Witch-King is unfazed by Gandalf -> Witch-King can break Gandalf more easily than the guy whose power he wields second hand could

Care to explain?
 
The Wraiths were kings of men that had the nine rings?
Wasn't the foremost a mighty Sorcerer before even he had the ring? My impression was too that they gradually became wraiths, they are not re-animated "dead" in the normal necromancy sense? But Ages since I read it all.
[Edit: Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die, But does that mean they did die, or would have died without the Rings?]

It's never explained exactly why Sauron does what he does, but my impression was that the One Ring, by coming into the world again instead of with Gollum hidden in the roots of the mountain, empowers Sauron to transition from being the nebulous evil to having power to reactivate Mordor. Of course if Gandalf had entirely realised what Bilbo took of Gollum and had got it destroyed at once, then the "story" would have ended with the hobbit.

But surely the suggestion is that the exposed ring empowered Sauron and then only after he was well established back in Mordor did Gandalf suspect what the Ring was. He then goes to Bag End to confirm this.

I go now and examine LOTR

He explains to Frodo in Ch2 The Shadow of the Past. in LOTR
Gandalf away for 3 years after party (this is long after the Hobbit, Bilbo is 111).
Brief visits next couple of years.
Nine year gap.
He KNOWS what the Ring is now. A Great Ring.
"A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die ... if he uses it ... he fades". [So the Nazgul, the Nine Kings likely didn't die.]
TWICE, Frodo asks "how long have you known this"
Gandalf explains that "all the wise" know this stuff. 'But if you mean "Known about this ring" ... There is a last test to make. But I no longer doubt my guess. When did I first begin to guess?' he mused.
White Council drove the dark power from Mirkwood (Necromancer) before battle of Five Armies.
Bilbo finds his ring. A shadow fell on my heart. He knows Gollum must have a "Great Ring". [Are there more than explict list in Rhyme?]
Eventually gets most of truth from Bilbo. The lies too much like Gollum's story. First Real Warning [this is some while after events of Hobbit I think?]
But the night of the Party really worried Gandalf.
The intervening years finds the truth [seems to be 14 years now since 111th Party?]
[So Gandalf never gives an explicit time, but the "party" is about 60 years after "The Hobbit" So by time of Ch2, the Ring has been away from hidden place at root of Mountain with Gollum for 70 years approx?]
Gandalf says he wasn't sure at last visit [9 years ago]
He throws it in fire and the writing appears. Now without doubt it's the Master Ring, the One Ring [that Sauron has put so much of himself in. That's why when Isildur cut it off Sauron dwindled and why his strength rose again when Bilbo brings it "out"?]
"The Enemy is fast becoming very strong" [It's never explicitly explained "why now"]
"He lacks the One Ring"
As the Shadow grows once more, they too may walk again [the Nine once mortal kings become Wraiths]
Gandalf then tells story of Isildur and Déagol, Sméagol/Gollum. He has SEEN Gollum. But so unfortunately has Sauron.


So re-reading LOTR I believe my interpretation of what I had always thought was implied is a logical explanation of why after so long Sauron makes a comeback to Mordor and why he fled from Mirkwood. Why the foremost of the Nine would be strong then?

I agree the battle between Gandalf and whatever it was in the Pt II of Hobbit film isn't in Book. In the Book it's not 100% clear though what power of Witch King is and Gandalf before & After Balrog isn't the same. Before Balrog he seems to get Weary easily and certainly wasn't a match for Sauruman the White.
 
Ray McCarthy said:
The Wraiths were kings of men that had the nine rings?
Wasn't the foremost a mighty Sorcerer before even he had the ring? My impression was too that they gradually became wraiths, they are not re-animated "dead" in the normal necromancy sense? But Ages since I read it all.
[Edit: Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die, But does that mean they did die, or would have died without the Rings?]
Click to expand...
I am not sure about the exact process that transformed those Kings of Men to Nazgûl. All I know is they got the rings of men and was somehow transformed, presumably by Sauron wielding the one ring. Maybe it is explained in more detail in some of Tolkien's notes.
Yes, the foremost was probably a great sorcerer in life. If I recall correctly, he was some Numenorean King, which would make him of similar lineage to Aragorn. Enhanced a bit by the ring he got, I am sure.
Gandalf is Olorin, wisest of the Maiar. An immortal, angelic being, of similar order to Sauron, though probably lesser, and made even more lesser by taking up the shape of an old man. Also restrained from using his full power, except to match equal power, or something of that sort, even though I can't remember the exact wording. He has also received a ring of power, Narya, from Cirdan, upon arriving to Middle-Earth.
So, we have a mighty sorceror among men, with one of the rings of power for men. Formidable, for sure, but hardly exclipsing a Maia in the shape of a man, with an elven ring. In fact, based on this comparison between their respective natures, I would give a slight advantage to Gandalf in sheer magical power, especially after being enhanced to the White, presumably by Eru. If Witch-King can match Gandalf (and that is as in being equal, not superior) it is likely due to some borrowed power from Sauron.
Seeing how the nine seemed far less formidable when chasing the hobbits (Aragorn drove off some with a torch, and Gandalf held off five, no less, by himself on Weathertop), it seems likely that their power was greater the closer to Mordor they got. That fits quite well with getting power lent to them from Sauron. I am aware this is a bit of speculation.

Ray McCarthy said:
It's never explained exactly why Sauron does what he does, but my impression was that the One Ring, by coming into the world again instead of with Gollum hidden in the roots of the mountain, empowers Sauron to transition from being the nebulous evil to having power to reactivate Mordor. Of course if Gandalf had entirely realised what Bilbo took of Gollum and had got it destroyed at once, then the "story" would have ended with the hobbit.

But surely the suggestion is that the exposed ring empowered Sauron and then only after he was well established back in Mordor did Gandalf suspect what the Ring was. He then goes to Bag End to confirm this.

I go now and examine LOTR

He explains to Frodo in Ch2 The Shadow of the Past. in LOTR
Gandalf away for 3 years after party (this is long after the Hobbit, Bilbo is 111).
Brief visits next couple of years.
Nine year gap.
He KNOWS what the Ring is now. A Great Ring.
"A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die ... if he uses it ... he fades". [So the Nazgul, the Nine Kings likely didn't die.]
TWICE, Frodo asks "how long have you known this"
Gandalf explains that "all the wise" know this stuff. 'But if you mean "Known about this ring" ... There is a last test to make. But I no longer doubt my guess. When did I first begin to guess?' he mused.
White Council drove the dark power from Mirkwood (Necromancer) before battle of Five Armies.
Bilbo finds his ring. A shadow fell on my heart. He knows Gollum must have a "Great Ring". [Are there more than explict list in Rhyme?]
Eventually gets most of truth from Bilbo. The lies too much like Gollum's story. First Real Warning [this is some while after events of Hobbit I think?]
But the night of the Party really worried Gandalf.
The intervening years finds the truth [seems to be 14 years now since 111th Party?]
[So Gandalf never gives an explicit time, but the "party" is about 60 years after "The Hobbit" So by time of Ch2, the Ring has been away from hidden place at root of Mountain with Gollum for 70 years approx?]
Gandalf says he wasn't sure at last visit [9 years ago]
He throws it in fire and the writing appears. Now without doubt it's the Master Ring, the One Ring [that Sauron has put so much of himself in. That's why when Isildur cut it off Sauron dwindled and why his strength rose again when Bilbo brings it "out"?]
"The Enemy is fast becoming very strong" [It's never explicitly explained "why now"]
"He lacks the One Ring"
As the Shadow grows once more, they too may walk again [the Nine once mortal kings become Wraiths]
Gandalf then tells story of Isildur and Déagol, Sméagol/Gollum. He has SEEN Gollum. But so unfortunately has Sauron.


So re-reading LOTR I believe my interpretation of what I had always thought was implied is a logical explanation of why after so long Sauron makes a comeback to Mordor and why he fled from Mirkwood. Why the foremost of the Nine would be strong then?

I agree the battle between Gandalf and whatever it was in the Pt II of Hobbit film isn't in Book. In the Book it's not 100% clear though what power of Witch King is and Gandalf before & After Balrog isn't the same. Before Balrog he seems to get Weary easily and certainly wasn't a match for Sauruman the White.
Click to expand...
Sauron fled from Mirkwood because the White Council struck at his fortress Dol Gûldur. I am not entirely sure who participated, but Gandalf would have been assisted by others of a similar power level, such as other wizards and the elven ring-wielders (Elrond and Galadriel).
So we have a group of characters at approximately Gandalf's power level to drive off the master (Sauron) in Tolkien's writings, whereas the pawn (Witch-King) is only just about a match of Gandalf alone, give or take. That is remarkably logical, power coherent and well thought out, compared to the ludicrous Peter Jackson notion that the pawn can beat Gandalf more easily than the Master can. A shame that the power levels that Tolkien clearly planned out carefully gets replaced by dumb ones that Peter Jackson pulled out of his butt.

But yes, you are right in what you say. I am not refuting any of it. It just fails to explain why the pawn beats Gandalf more easily than the master does, which is the point of this thread. I stand by my position that in Tolkien's writings, Witch-King could not beat Gandalf more easily than Sauron could. Not a chance in hell. It is a Jackson plot device.
 
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Ray McCarthy said:
But how much before Bilbo retrieved ring from where Gollum had dropped or hidden it?
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The scene in Hobbit II would have been slightly after Bilbo retrieved the ring, although I am not sure how it would have mattered whether Gollum or Bilbo had the ring.
 
Thr ing was hidden under mountain when Gollum had it therefore hard for Sauron to detect it. Once Bilbo had it out in the open and started using it it became more obvious and noticeable to Sauron :)
 
Kylara said:
Thr ing was hidden under mountain when Gollum had it therefore hard for Sauron to detect it. Once Bilbo had it out in the open and started using it it became more obvious and noticeable to Sauron :)
Click to expand...
Yes, it may be so, but why would he be weaker in magic and sorcery than Witch-King, just because he might have had a harder time detecting the ring?
Then again, Sauron might have toyed with Gandalf somehow in that scene. I suppose it is possible.
 
A lot of Sauron's power is held within the ring, so he is weaker without it and much stronger with it. The wraiths are stronger the closer the are to the power of the ring (or so I always believed). I was merely commenting on your statement about not mattering if Gollum or Bilbo had the ring. Purely because Gollum + ring were hidden and Bilbo + ring begins to "un-hide" the ring and bring it closer to Sauron, if that makes sense? :)
 
Yeah, I got it.:)

I don't think that is how it works, though. At least not to the extent it would need to.
 
Yes , but was that The Witch king only that Gandalf was facing or was the Witch King acting as a conduit for Sauron?
 
With respect to Darth Angelus and the rest of you in the conversation, trying to make sense of Jackson's effect driven movie does not interest me. But if you'll bear with me, I'd like to make a few remarks about Gandalf from my interpretation of Tolkien's story.

I recently posted in Why wouldn't Aragorn claim the throne of Gondor? about Aragorn's name from his mother... Estel... translated as Hope. He was her hope. He was the hope of the Dunedain. He was the hope of Men. But the role he really fulfilled to the world was that of King, the bringer of peace and the dispenser of justice. It was Gandalf who brought hope to the peoples of Middle-earth. Here's a quote from The Silmarillion (Ainulindale)...

"Of Melian much is told in the Quenta Silmarillion. But of Olórin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Iluvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put way the imaginations of darkness."

Just so you know, Olorin is Gandalf. From The Two Towers...

“Many are my names in many countries: Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Dwarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.”

In Unfinished Tales (The Istari), Tolkien makes it clear that Olorin is hesitant to join Curumo (Saruman) and Aiwendil (Radagast) on their crusade to assist the remnants of Elves and Men against Sauron... because he knows Sauron is much stronger than he. And then in The Return of the King when Pippins asks if a new and improved Gandalf the White will look into the palantir and do battle with Sauron, Gandalf replied, "I am not ready for such a trial, if indeed I shall ever be so."

I think it is clear Gandalf, even Gandalf the White, even considered himself inferior to Sauron without the Ring.

In my recollection, Gandalf was relieved he did not have to battle the Witch-king when the gates of Minas Tirith were broken. I don't know what the outcome would have been. But Tolkien gives us many examples of supposedly weaker creatures defeating more powerful creatures... Turin and Glaurung, Hurin and the Troll guard, Ecthelion and a Balrog, Glorfindel and a Balrog, Sam and Shelob, Fram, Bard and Smaug... And the Witch-king was no longer remotely human.

Gandalf wore Narya, one of the Three Elven rings made by Celebrimbor, and wielded Glamdring, a fell sword forged in ancient Gondolin by Noldorin smiths who probably came from Valinor. He was no slouch at fighting... but it was not his forte. Gandalf excelled above all others in Middle-earth at encouraging. Could anyone else have persuaded Bilbo to take a vacation from his gentrified life and become a burglar? Could anyone else have brought Theoden out of his malaise? Who else could have rallied Minas Tirith after Denethor's descent into madness, Boromir's death, Faramir's injury, Rohan's seeming unresponse, and with Nazgul overhead and Sauron's hordes pounding on the gates?

Everyone wanted to name him as a bringer of bad news and a herald of woe, but that's because he went where people were most quickly falling into despair.

He also connected people with friends and allies. He brought Sam in as Frodo's friend. He wrote a letter of introduction for Aragorn to Frodo. He insisted that Merry and Pippin stay with the party after Rivendell. Elrond became the Fellowship's sponsor at Gandalf's urging. He got rid of Wormtongue and brought Aragorn to Theoden's aid. He encouraged Eomer's release. He enlisted the Ents to join the war... and got a host of Huorns along the way. He gave the palantir to Aragorn. He introduced Merry to Theoden. He brought Pippin to Denethor and Faramir. He convinced Theoden to ride to Minas Tirith. And oh, by the way... he was instrumental in bringing Dain and Bard together so that the North was able to keep from being overrun in the War of the Ring.

How and why did he do this? Was it mere altruism? Was it hatred for Sauron? I think it stems from who he was made to be. He was of the Maiar (lesser angels) of Manwe and Varda, the two most regal and holy of the Valar (greater angels). Manwe and Varda knew more of the mind and heart of Eru (God) than the other Valar... thus they were the wisest, most patient, and merciful. Olorin/Gandalf served them. He stayed steadfast to them while Melkor (Sauron's boss) seduced many Maiar to his cause. Olorin/Gandalf loved the living light (the grace) of Varda, the wisdom of Manwe, and their reverence for Eru. This is why he loved the Children of Eru... the Eldar (Elves) first, and then later Men, Dwarves, Ents, and Hobbits. He was not created as Tulkas, Ulmo, or Orome... he was to be a helper, a teacher, a counselor, a cheerleader. Sauron and the Balrogs all came from Aule's service... they knew strength, steel, sweat... and fire.

Gandalf was not intended to fight such as these. He was intended to stir up his friends hearts to bravery and good deeds. Of all the people chosen for the Fellowship, none were truer than the first two... selected by Gandalf. Frodo and Sam. Sam was steadfast and Frodo was faithful.
 
And Gandalf also wore the elven ring Narya (given to him on his arrival in Middle Earth), the Ring of Fire, whose power was to inspire others to resist tyranny and despair.

Which is why I think Gandalf would have defeated the Witch King if it had come to a one-on-one battle, because the Nazgûl's greatest weapon was fear, and Gandalf himself and the ring he wore were the very antidote to fear.
 
Ah... I'd forgotten the Ring's actual power. Doh!
 
Boaz said:
With respect to Darth Angelus and the rest of you in the conversation, trying to make sense of Jackson's effect driven movie does not interest me. But if you'll bear with me, I'd like to make a few remarks about Gandalf from my interpretation of Tolkien's story.

I recently posted in Why wouldn't Aragorn claim the throne of Gondor? about Aragorn's name from his mother... Estel... translated as Hope. He was her hope. He was the hope of the Dunedain. He was the hope of Men. But the role he really fulfilled to the world was that of King, the bringer of peace and the dispenser of justice. It was Gandalf who brought hope to the peoples of Middle-earth. Here's a quote from The Silmarillion (Ainulindale)...

"Of Melian much is told in the Quenta Silmarillion. But of Olórin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Iluvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put way the imaginations of darkness."

Just so you know, Olorin is Gandalf. From The Two Towers...

“Many are my names in many countries: Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Dwarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.”

In Unfinished Tales (The Istari), Tolkien makes it clear that Olorin is hesitant to join Curumo (Saruman) and Aiwendil (Radagast) on their crusade to assist the remnants of Elves and Men against Sauron... because he knows Sauron is much stronger than he. And then in The Return of the King when Pippins asks if a new and improved Gandalf the White will look into the palantir and do battle with Sauron, Gandalf replied, "I am not ready for such a trial, if indeed I shall ever be so."

I think it is clear Gandalf, even Gandalf the White, even considered himself inferior to Sauron without the Ring.

In my recollection, Gandalf was relieved he did not have to battle the Witch-king when the gates of Minas Tirith were broken. I don't know what the outcome would have been. But Tolkien gives us many examples of supposedly weaker creatures defeating more powerful creatures... Turin and Glaurung, Hurin and the Troll guard, Ecthelion and a Balrog, Glorfindel and a Balrog, Sam and Shelob, Fram, Bard and Smaug... And the Witch-king was no longer remotely human.

Gandalf wore Narya, one of the Three Elven rings made by Celebrimbor, and wielded Glamdring, a fell sword forged in ancient Gondolin by Noldorin smiths who probably came from Valinor. He was no slouch at fighting... but it was not his forte. Gandalf excelled above all others in Middle-earth at encouraging. Could anyone else have persuaded Bilbo to take a vacation from his gentrified life and become a burglar? Could anyone else have brought Theoden out of his malaise? Who else could have rallied Minas Tirith after Denethor's descent into madness, Boromir's death, Faramir's injury, Rohan's seeming unresponse, and with Nazgul overhead and Sauron's hordes pounding on the gates?

Everyone wanted to name him as a bringer of bad news and a herald of woe, but that's because he went where people were most quickly falling into despair.

He also connected people with friends and allies. He brought Sam in as Frodo's friend. He wrote a letter of introduction for Aragorn to Frodo. He insisted that Merry and Pippin stay with the party after Rivendell. Elrond became the Fellowship's sponsor at Gandalf's urging. He got rid of Wormtongue and brought Aragorn to Theoden's aid. He encouraged Eomer's release. He enlisted the Ents to join the war... and got a host of Huorns along the way. He gave the palantir to Aragorn. He introduced Merry to Theoden. He brought Pippin to Denethor and Faramir. He convinced Theoden to ride to Minas Tirith. And oh, by the way... he was instrumental in bringing Dain and Bard together so that the North was able to keep from being overrun in the War of the Ring.

How and why did he do this? Was it mere altruism? Was it hatred for Sauron? I think it stems from who he was made to be. He was of the Maiar (lesser angels) of Manwe and Varda, the two most regal and holy of the Valar (greater angels). Manwe and Varda knew more of the mind and heart of Eru (God) than the other Valar... thus they were the wisest, most patient, and merciful. Olorin/Gandalf served them. He stayed steadfast to them while Melkor (Sauron's boss) seduced many Maiar to his cause. Olorin/Gandalf loved the living light (the grace) of Varda, the wisdom of Manwe, and their reverence for Eru. This is why he loved the Children of Eru... the Eldar (Elves) first, and then later Men, Dwarves, Ents, and Hobbits. He was not created as Tulkas, Ulmo, or Orome... he was to be a helper, a teacher, a counselor, a cheerleader. Sauron and the Balrogs all came from Aule's service... they knew strength, steel, sweat... and fire.

Gandalf was not intended to fight such as these. He was intended to stir up his friends hearts to bravery and good deeds. Of all the people chosen for the Fellowship, none were truer than the first two... selected by Gandalf. Frodo and Sam. Sam was steadfast and Frodo was faithful.
Click to expand...
All very good points. My criticism was aimed at Peter Jackson's movies and a certain incoherence I perceived there (or it might be that Sauron toyed with Gandalf a little bit in that Dol Guldur scene.

I also do not perceive Olorin/Gandalf as one of the major powerhouses (a word I know might not entirely fit with Tolkien's way of looking at his work, I know) among the Ainur. And yes, Sauron is mightier than him. Witch-King is another matter.
But Peter Jackson's movies are driven by effects, as you say. It is probably nothing more than "It would be awesome if Witch-King easily broke Gandalf's staff" or to raise the stakes for the upcoming Eowyn vs. Witch-King fight.
 
Darth Angelus said:
All very good points.
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Really? That's a first for me!

Darth Angelus said:
My criticism was aimed at Peter Jackson's movies and a certain incoherence I perceived
Click to expand...
Welcome to the club. It's a small one. The problem that you and I have with the films is that big effects are used to showcase Gandalf's power... while in the books, Gandalf is the master of subtlety.

The one trap I fall into...

One of the traps I fall into is trying to systematize Middle-earth. If A, then B. If A and B, then C, D, and E. Tolkien was telling a story. It was intended to be a myth from the mists of time. The facts will blur with the retelling... the truth can not.

Gandalf held off five Nazgul. Gandalf was imprisoned by Saruman. Gandalf slew a Balrog. Gandalf refused to use the Palantir in a direct challenge to Sauron. Gandalf was not overly optimistic about facing the Witch King. Gandalf could telepathically communicate with Galadriel. Gandalf sent a vision to Frodo. Gandalf fled from wargs. Gandalf fought wargs. Gandalf fled from the Watcher in the Water.

Systematically defining his powers and placing him precisely in the list of the most powerful of Arda is highly problematic. Yet, the truth is that he worked and planned for thousands of years to defeat Sauron by simply encouraging ordinary people to take a stand.

And to some degree, Jackson is only retelling Tolkien's story. He takes license with the effects. Like I said, the facts will blur with the retelling. And there is so much blurring that you and I are left feeling drunk.

Sometimes Jackson got the facts wrong, but really got to the heart of the story...

Frodo never sent Sam home. Sam staying true to Frodo and the quest is the truth.

Aragorn's test with the Ring happened in Rivendell, not Amon Hen. The truth is that Aragorn rejected Sauron, the Ring, and evil with all his strength.

Merry and Pippin openly steal property in their first two scenes. They were mischievous youths, not thieves.

Thorin's party fought Smaug. They never even saw Smaug, but they got their home back.

And yet sometimes Jackson got the facts right, but the truth was lost...

Gandalf urging Theoden to action is a fact. Gandalf urging Theoden to meet Isengard in open battle (losing thousands of lives) is a lie.

Faramir meeting Frodo is a fact. Faramir's indecision, about how to deal with Isildur's Bane, is a lie.

Sauron poured smoke and filth into the air to encourage his forces and dismay his foes. Arwen's sickness is ridiculous.

Elrond knew a direct assault upon Mordor was pointless. Elrond's contempt for Aragorn is not only a blatant lie, it is a complete reversal of Elrond's character.

Treebeard was guardian of the forest. And yet to make him completely unaware that his forest was under is attack is stupid...

Ultimately, Jackson got the truth of the four main characters correct. Frodo willingly sacrificed himself for the innocent. Gandalf brought hope to the despairing. Aragorn established justice for the oppressed. And Sam was unshakeable in his resolve to do his job every day. By that measure, Jackson retold the story and brought us these truths... and yet it feels as though Elrond, Treebeard, Faramir, Denthor, Gimli, Merry, Pippin, and Butterbur (not to mention the Gaffer, Tom Bombadil, Goldberry, Hob, Nob, Glorfindel, Ghan-buri-Ghan, Beregond, Bergil, Ioreth, and Imrahil) were all either destroyed or deconstructed to get the main four to the end. That is unsatisfying to me.
 
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