Ancient Rome and Dragons

[Druico]

Well let's say both sides have dragons, and infantry and cavalry etc.

The infantry and cavalry would fight each other on the ground as will normal warfare. The Dragons being predominantly airborne would engage in 'dog-fights' between the enemy units. Although trying to harass the ground troops, doing so would make them vulnerable to their enemies dragons.

I wouldn't say the presence of dragons would change the tactics of the Roman army or render it's forces inept. Instead they would be prepared for what they might face, their own dragons would be on reserve to protect against air strikes.

 

[psychotick]

Hi Mtzgr,

Consider the effect though. If you have dragons, and even if every race has dragons, you may match societies up and have similar outcomes in wars, but what happens to everything else? The Romans were strong militarily through their organised infantry. What use are infantry when you have dragons? They'd be completely useless. So how did they conquor the city states of Greece? What about naval forces? One dragon with fire breath can set a ship or a fleet on fire out at sea, so there goes the whole Helen of Troy thing. City fortifications? Hell city improvements like aquaducts. What would be the point in even building them if a dragon could simply wipe them out? Naturally of course, wooden structures would be out. Everything, and I mean everything would have to be stone and probably extremely heavy stone at that.

Dragons are such a major power that they radically distort the rest of the ancient world. (Unless you want to turn them into mere winged lizards.)

Cheers, Greg.

 

[JoanDrake]

Hi Mtzgr,

Consider the effect though. If you have dragons, and even if every race has dragons, you may match societies up and have similar outcomes in wars, but what happens to everything else? The Romans were strong militarily through their organised infantry. What use are infantry when you have dragons? They'd be completely useless. So how did they conquor the city states of Greece? What about naval forces? One dragon with fire breath can set a ship or a fleet on fire out at sea, so there goes the whole Helen of Troy thing. City fortifications? Hell city improvements like aquaducts. What would be the point in even building them if a dragon could simply wipe them out? Naturally of course, wooden structures would be out. Everything, and I mean everything would have to be stone and probably extremely heavy stone at that.

Dragons are such a major power that they radically distort the rest of the ancient world. (Unless you want to turn them into mere winged lizards.)

Cheers, Greg.

Could you put limitations on the Dragons? Maybe have them hard to handle/

Ohh..I know, the Roman infantry found they could stampede Hannibal's elephants right back through his handlers by attacking their feet, which are sensitive, and they also used fire.

Roman infantry was amazingly disciplined, if any group could find and exploit a Dragon's weakness it would be them

 

[Toby Frost]

I would imagine that one dragon - essentially a cross between an armoured dinosaur and a fighter plane with a massive flamethrower - could do whatever it pleased with a Roman infantry unit. There's also the problem that the dragons (depending on their intelligence) might decide not to do what they're told, including fighting one another. I was always surprised how docile Temeraire was, when he and his fellow dragons could have got together and simply taken over the world.

Here's a thought: the dragons are rare, and powerful, and so they have taken over. Instead of an Emperor, we have a dragon, who spends his time either plotting with/against his human senators or rolling about on a pile of denarii depending on his level of decadence. Perhaps the Vestal virgins are there for him to eat on ceremonial occasions. SDQR. And maybe one day, his praetorians get tired of him eating them...

 

[HareBrain]

Here's a thought: the dragons are rare, and powerful, and so they have taken over. Instead of an Emperor, we have a dragon, who spends his time either plotting with/against his human senators or rolling about on a pile of denarii depending on his level of decadence. Perhaps the Vestal virgins are there for him to eat on ceremonial occasions. SDQR. And maybe one day, his praetorians get tired of him eating them...

Ooh, write it!

 

[Toby Frost]

Hmm...

 

[Travis Woodward]

Clearly there would need to be some restriction on your dragons, else as others have said it would massively tip the scales in the favour of anyone who had dragons.

Dragons could be extremely scarce, and so while a battle dragon is an incredible boon to your side it wouldn't be enough to defeat overwhelming numbers.

Or you could place limits on a dragon's physical abilities - perhaps, since they're so large, they can't fly and breath fire for very long without tiring? So they'd have to be used strategically but again wouldn't be the sole deciding factor in a fight unless you had dozens of them.

If your dragons were hard to tame/ unreliable then using them in open battle could be a risk to your own men as well as the enemy, making them a bit like artillery. Or maybe you can't tame them at all - maybe all you can do is point them in a direction and let them loose. That would make them more like an ancient weapon of mass destruction, so if both sides had dragons then you might get a Mutually Assured Destruction situation.

I think you could make it work, and it could be quite fun and could be tied to a few historical events like the Great Fire of Rome.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Any thoughts or opinions would be appreciated

From a purely writing aspect, I'd advise caution about writing about mixing Roman Historical Fiction with Fantasy Fiction - because both are established genres. That means that at some point a publishing house is going to ask which audience they market to - because it won't be to both. Although there is some overlap in readership of both genres, expect them to be treated as exclusive, not inclusive. And that may make a cross-over book a difficult sell to publishers (if you were looking at the traditional route).

In which case, it could be worth looking to see whether there are any similar genre cross-overs in the market. You already mention Naomi Novik, so I'd advise looking for more and see how they handle it.

David Gemmell famously wanted to write historical fiction, but was effectively forced to remain as a fantasy author. His Sword in the Storm is plainly about Celts vs Romans, but in a fictionalised way that fantasy readers will be aware of, but is clearly not historical. You may find yourself needing to make a similar compromise.

And, unless you are plainly an expert on Roman history and Roman daily life, you may struggle to appeal to the Historical Fiction market. It may be worth your while to consider using a Rome analogue, to give you more freedom with your writing, and ensure you are firmly rooted in the fantasy genre - and an established market - without creating confusion as to which readers you are trying to appeal to.

2c.

 

[Druico]

Hi mate,

Yeah I did consider creating like a fantasy Rome setting, I've wrote similar stories about a fantasy setting inspired by Rome just without dragons.

I'm not a Roman history expert by any means, just an interested individual who studied it for a few years at college. I would love to mix the ancient roman culture and dragons together, but I understand what you mean. I think instead of doing one area well and pleasing that audience, it may do both to half measures.

Decisions, decisions!

 

[chrispenycate]

Ooh, write it!

I've already written it.

From a purely writing aspect, I'd advise caution about writing about mixing Roman Historical Fiction with Fantasy Fiction - because both are established genres.

David Drake's written a couple of speculative – perhaps more SF than fantasy – set in Imperial Rome, specifically "Birds of Prey' but include 'Ranks of Bronze' - It's not that difficult to add dragons. Hybrid historical/fantasy is almost a genre in its own write.

 

[Druico]

If you've wrote it, could you add more details like what you decided on?

I'll check out those stories, thanks for the suggestion.

 

[chrispenycate]

I'm not sure my stories would be any use- I generally write from the point of view of the dragons. Who are on the edge of extinction because humans breed faster, and can swarm over individual dragons if they're ready to accept the losses, and the dragons are being slowly squeezed out. As they are naturally solitary predators, dragons can never co-operate against their human foes, so are losing against Joining the Imperial forces is an act of desperation, but any dragon that agrees to come down from the mountains and join the legions is given citizenship, and encouraged to settle, but any Imperial born dragon is automatically conscripted twenty years into the military (mostly the legions, a few the navy). At first they only conscripted male dragons, but soon realised females were just as effective, aggressive, everything. Which left one fledgling (the first dragon to be enrolled in a human school) an orphan, and she's the mother of the first Dragon emperor well, empress to be precise. The legions still elect the emperor, and the legions like dragons – you don't want me to write all of this out, do you?

 

[Druico]

It sounds really interesting! But it's up to you mate

 

[K.S. Crooks]

The Roman Empire became so vast and had so many non-romans, your idea can be done in a hundred different locations. I would narrow down a few locations and time periods to discover which would best suit your story. The type of dragons you have is also crucial. Will they be intelligent? Do people use or work with them? Are there different types of dragons, with different skills, strengths and weaknesses.
All this thinking about dragons makes me wish I had a dragon story to work on.

 

[TitaniumTi]

The introduction of dragons into Rome would have potential for cultural conflict, with some military leaders recognising the dragons' potential and others defending military tradition. If the dragons came from a conquered tribe who worshipped them rather than utilising them, they might initially be regarded as a curiosity, rather than a weapon.

I'm no historian, but I suspect the transportation and communication potential of dragons might be at least as important as their direct military potential. Getting troops and information to the right place at the right time seems to have been a constant challenge and preoccupation for Rome. Even punishment might be affected; would exile be an acceptable punishment for an enemy who could climb on a dragon for a quick flight home?

Incidentally, the regrettably never-completed Multiverse series by David Weber and Linda Evans also included military dragons.

 

[chrispenycate]

That's the 'Hellsgate' magic vs. technology, right? Which gives an explanation of how dragons are suddenly discovered. And there's Harry Turtledove's 'Darkness' books, where the second world war is fought out, inverted (Finland is blazing hot, Nort Africa frozen wastes) with dragons and behemoths.

 

[TitaniumTi]

That's the 'Hellsgate' magic vs. technology, right?

Yes, although I thought of them as competing magical systems; neither seemed very technological to me.

 

[Druico]

Then maybe it would be easier to use a fantasy setting based on the Roman Empire and it's enemies. It would take a lot more world building, but then wouldn't need as much research.

If I went with a time period during the Roman Empire, it would be early Empire/late republic. Although I love the idea of Caesar and dragons, I think it would be difficult to use dragons in Gaul as they employed more guerrilla tactics etc

 

[Mirannan]

The impact of dragons depends somewhat on what version of dragons you are talking about. Pratchett's dragons or the Pernese ones wouldn't have all that fantastic a direct military influence (although the latter's teleportation might have a subtle one) but something like Smaug or a decent-sized D&D one would. The reason is partly that the lesser dragons might be taken down by ballistas, for example. And one of the really mighty dragons (Ancalagon at the top end, or great wyrms from D&D slightly less so) would completely dominate the situation.

 

[Druico]

Let's say Eragon size dragon, large enough to carry a rider but not so big that they become almost invincible. No special abilities, just the power to breath fire (depending on the race of dragon) bonding with a rider, able to understand languages, magical prowess possibly. But I don't want the story to be about dragon riders as such, they exist, but there in effect just soldiers.