Should we 'Americanize'?

[Brian G Turner]

But, also, can I actually take on an American voice and have it sound in any way natural?

I suspect this is where trying to keep your language neutral can help. Teresa made that argument a long time ago. It's not often I read science fiction or fantasy by a US author and notice a distinct American voice. Others might, though.

 

[Mouse]

FFS. NO. No. No. No. No. No. Nooooooooooo.

In Otherworld one of the MCs is Irish. He says eejit. Otherworld is published by an American press. My editor was American, as were the two proofreaders at the publishing house. NOT ONE OF THEM questioned the use of eejit or made me change it.

The only things I was asked to change were words that wouldn't be understood by anybody other than Brits - not just words that Americans might not understand! And I wasn't asked to 'Americanise' them. For example, and I've already spoken about this - UHT milk. I changed it to long life milk. That's not Americanised. My jumpers stayed as jumpers and didn't become sweaters, my car boot stayed as a boot and wasn't changed to trunk. I was also asked to change the word 'pootle' and let's be honest, there are probably even some Brits who won't know that one! (I changed it to 'potter' which my editors accepted with no problem.)

If you write other-worldly fantasy, then (unless it's portal fantasy where they've come from the US or Ireland or wherever) then I'd hope you would write as neutral as possible anyway.

 

[Avid Scifi Fan]

As a reader I can tell you it doesn't bother me. I actually enjoy seeing the strang sayings and spellings (although I have to pause to figure some out, but I can just adapt given the context). I can't speak to marketability, but I think it gives local flavor to the characters.

If I know the character is from somewhere in the UK, I don't want him americanized. and likewise, if a chracter is from the US I would make it act american. I prefer the narration to be that of the author.

Remember, the US is a melting pot of various cultures. A lot of sayings and bits of language have come here with immigrants over the years.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

FFS. NO. No. No. No. No. No. Nooooooooooo.

In Otherworld one of the MCs is Irish. He says eejit. Otherworld is published by an American press. My editor was American, as were the two proofreaders at the publishing house. NOT ONE OF THEM questioned the use of eejit or made me change it.

The only things I was asked to change were words that wouldn't be understood by anybody other than Brits - not just words that Americans might not understand! And I wasn't asked to 'Americanise' them. For example, and I've already spoken about this - UHT milk. I changed it to long life milk. That's not Americanised. My jumpers stayed as jumpers and didn't become sweaters, my car boot stayed as a boot and wasn't changed to trunk. I was also asked to change the word 'pootle' and let's be honest, there are probably even some Brits who won't know that one! (I changed it to 'potter' which my editors accepted with no problem.)

But you're citing a book based in, and voiced by British characters - the britishness was part of why it was picked up. I think that's a little different than most sff/fantasy. If anyone wanted Inish translated into an American voice or changed hugely, I'd run a mile.

 

[Mouse]

But you're citing a book based in, and voiced by British characters - the britishness was part of why it was picked up. I think that's a little different than most sff/fantasy. If anyone wanted Inish translated into an American voice or changed hugely, I'd run a mile.

If you write other-worldly fantasy, then (unless it's portal fantasy where they've come from the US or Ireland or wherever) then I'd hope you would write as neutral as possible anyway.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I did get that bit. Honest.

 

[thaddeus6th]

No.

 

[Toby Frost]

I think Americans are a lot less likely to throw a book down because it uses a few odd words than Europeans might think - especially not an SF book. (I have an image of a cowboy on the range reading "The monstrous varp drew its pulsatron and in a flartbeat had turned Volgok to the consistency of a biscuit" and shouting "Biscuit? What the darn tootin?") In fact, fantasy - especially the vague "medieval" sort - seems to need a kind of olde-England setting. Harry Potter probably derives some of its popularity from a vague sense that Hogwarts is quite like normal life in Britain, with magic, and the Britishisms probably help. Tad Williams attempted - perhaps assaulted is a better world - some West Country accents. People like a little bit of exoticism, even if it is a rather cod sort of exoticism.

I think it's far more important for the writer to get the details right when they go to the reader's "territory". One thing that jars terribly for me is the use of "blocks" to describe distances in the UK, where "streets" is the usual term. I'm sure there are others - in fact, that everywhere has them.

(Incidentally, I once got a great one-star review on Amazon where someone angrily stated that a British soldier would never refer to "my pants". I am still mystified. Perhaps I left a swear word out between "my" and "pants").

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I think Americans are a lot less likely to throw a book down because it uses a few odd words than Europeans might think - especially not an SF book. (I have an image of a cowboy on the range reading "The monstrous varp drew its pulsatron and in a flartbeat had turned Volgok to the consistency of a biscuit" and shouting "Biscuit? What the darn tootin?") In fact, fantasy - especially the vague "medieval" sort - seems to need a kind of olde-England setting. Harry Potter probably derives some of its popularity from a vague sense that Hogwarts is quite like normal life in Britain, with magic, and the Britishisms probably help. Tad Williams attempted - perhaps assaulted is a better world - some West Country accents. People like a little bit of exoticism, even if it is a rather cod sort of exoticism.

I think it's far more important for the writer to get the details right when they go to the reader's "territory". One thing that jars terribly for me is the use of "blocks" to describe distances in the UK, where "streets" is the usual term. I'm sure there are others - in fact, that everywhere has them.

(Incidentally, I once got a great one-star review on Amazon where someone angrily stated that a British soldier would never refer to "my pants". I am still mystified. Perhaps I left a swear word out between "my" and "pants").

I lolled. Really. Darn tootin' pants.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

consistency of a biscuit

Fresh, or stale?

 

[ratsy]

I honestly have never been bothered by any of UKisms in reading. I think part of that may be due to Canada using a more British spelling system, or at the least a hybrid of the two.

I will tell you one thing...I can understand the written Irish word much better than hearing it!

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Ha!
Someone in 1930s Ireland proficient in Irish could perhaps read 12th C Irish. Most people can't read Chaucer and struggle a little with Shakespeare.

Then in 1948 they fixed spelling to remove all the letters no longer pronounced, and some cases changed letters used. Modern Irish readers seriously struggle with pre 1948 Irish.

@ratsy I suspect you meant some Dialects of of Irish people speaking English!

Sons of Manannán Mac Lir:
Sgoith Gleigeil, the White Flower
Goitne Gorm-Shuileach, the Blue-eyed Spear
Sine Sindearg, of the Red Ring,
Donall Donn-Ruadh, of the Red-brown Hair.
(Not to be confused with Children of Lêr)

Gleigeil, Gorm-Shuileach, Sindearg and Donn-Ruadh we ignore. Those are typical colour referencing adjectives, not surnames. The English is given.

Just like lots of boy's names and unisex names in English are now only girls:
Sine = Sheena, a bloke.
Donall = Donal (easy).

My fluent Native Irish speaker hasn't a clue how Sgoith and Goitne is pronounced. She made some guesses.

More (simplified and inaccurate):
Conchobar (Old Irish pronunciation: [ˈkonxovar]; also spelled Conchobor, Conchobur; in Modern Irish: Conchobhar, Conchubhar, Conchúr : Actually it's quite close in Munster Irish to Connor.
Different regions of Irish have quite different pronunciation, so much so that though spelling in Ulster is the same, the pronunciation is often similar to radically different Scottish spelling (Gaelic, not English Scots dialect).

Lady Gregory and other old sources have Teamhair
But in Irish ph, th, dh, gh, mh are NEVER in separate syllables. For shorthand they used to put a dot above the letter instead of an "h"
So Teamhair is very approximately Tawera (as mh is sort of a w sound), it's called Tara now!

Since 1948, Irish doesn't work the same
http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/sengoidelc/donncha/labhairt.html

Disclaimer: I can't read / write or speak Irish at all. I'm rubbish at French pronunciation, my Irish pronunciation is far worse.

 

[ratsy]

@Ray McCarthy ...no I stand behind my statement. The Irish language

 

[Ray McCarthy]

I can understand the written Irish word much better than hearing it!

Before or after 1948 versions?
I don't understand either.

Whiskey is the oldest Irish word used in English. Important!
without e for Eire it's Scotch.

 

[Mouse]

I did get that bit. Honest.

(I have an image of a cowboy on the range reading "The monstrous varp drew its pulsatron and in a flartbeat had turned Volgok to the consistency of a biscuit" and shouting "Biscuit? What the darn tootin?")

Please let this happen.


Re. Irishness. Was watching Ghost Adventures (I know, I love it) the other night and Zak and co were in Ireland somewhere (wasn't paying that much attention) and every time they were speaking to the owner of the house, the poor guy was subtitled, even though he was perfectly understandable. They then had voiceover bits in a really obviously fake Irish accent telling the house's history... and this wasn't subtitled at all.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

The French put French subtitles on Canadian Films / TV imported. Even if in French.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

I its popularity from a vague sense that Hogwarts is quite like normal life in Britain, with magic, and the Britishisms probably help.

However, there are an awful lot of Bristishisms edited out of the "American" translation of "The Philosopher's Stone."

I was a little surprised at how different "The Sorcerer's Stone" was to "The Philsopher's Stone".

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Yes, I've heard that they changed a good deal for the American edition of the first Harry Potter book, where one would, indeed, expect the Britishness to be part of its charm. I have certainly never had problems with Britishisms in books set in the UK (although "jumper" confused me for a long, long time, because it means a very different sort of garment here), but I would probably find it rather funny if a book set in the US had characters using any sort of British slang. So I can sympathize with writers who resist changing their work in any way for the US market. It seems rather grotesque.

But that's just what I think. I learned a long time ago that it is a big mistake to assume that my own tastes necessarily reflect the market. Quite often they don't. And it's often just as big a mistake to assume anything at all about the larger market based on such a small sampling of readers as we have here.

So I think something sort of neutral (if the setting isn't particularly important to the characters and the story) may be the way to go for anyone hoping their books will appeal to a large readership. Although when I was talking to Brian about language I believe I was discussing language that was too modern in a novel with a medieval setting. But in one of Hex's manuscripts that I read recently the story was very much linked to it's Edinburgh setting, so I can see how making too many changes -- and/or the wrong changes -- to make the book sound less Scottish would spoil it.

Mouse, your M&M romances are the kind of thing I had in mind when I said niche market. I imagine it's a pretty big niche, but the number of gay romances being published probably doesn't come close to the number of readers who would like to read them, if they only knew where to find them. So when they do find them, I am guessing that they are too happy to worry about whether the characters and the narration sound British or American, if the book is a good one. (Probably even if it is a bad one, since romance readers in general can forgive a lot if they like the story and characters.) So it doesn't surprise me in the least that your editors couldn't care less about that sort of thing.

 

[Mouse]

So it doesn't surprise me in the least that your editors couldn't care less about that sort of thing.

Wow. No. My editors cared very much about everything. We worked together. Anything they didn't understand we spoke about.

Also, it's not just idiots who read it, or people who'll forgive any old thing. I've read lots of reviews where readers have picked up on bad use of language, or books that have been poorly edited. I know people look down on the stuff I write but I work damn hard, and so do my editors, publishers, proofreaders and betas.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

But I thought you said they didn't change everything over to American/English, which is the subject of the thread and what I was talking about. Which makes your publishers open-minded, publishing for an open-minded market, not careless or inferior. (With an aside that romance readers in general tend to be forgiving of a lot of things -- at least the hetero ones are -- although that doesn't mean that all romance readers don't notice or care -- because a lot of them do, just not enough to make a significant impact on sales -- or that all romance publishers are careless. But the big ones, that seem to grind out a dozen novels a month, can be sloppy in their copy editing -- if they use copy editors at all which I sometimes doubt. I think they may be complacent because readers keep coming back due to force of habit. A small but established publisher like yours -- that hasn't been a monster in the field for decades, like Harlequin -- would have more pride in their product.)