Astonishing Essay on Prince of Thorns

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We can see far worse at the cinema, but there's a bigger emotional distance between subject and viewer there.

I'd be surprised if a big % of the public agreed with that statement. Cinema is very immediate, very engaging, and reaches a much larger audience. A true reader will agree that books can reach deeper than film, but for most of humanity these days film is the prefered medium for consuming story.

This pulpy/realism argument is fine, but it feels like you're presenting it as an absolute, when it's absolutely not. What one person feels is cartooned another often will find deep and moving - those two different views can even arise in the same person if separated by a space of years or perhaps just a switch in mood or prejudice.
 
Item 1:

Wow. You know, even Liz Bourke said "Prince of Thorns has some damn good writing."

Er...

At which point did I specifically say your book is "category two grimdark" or insult the writing quality? Actually, Edwards argues it is category two grimdark (but is complementary about your writing). In my blog post I quote from his review, but do not take his opinions of your book as mine, but rather present his critical view alongside a more positive view (Aiden Moher's) that describes grimdark in your book as fundamentally intellectually/artistically justified (i.e. what I call category one grimdark).

And it was Joe Abercrombie, speaking about his own work, who makes the point that it can be "easy" to slip into category two grimdark.

I've been very careful not to draw hard and fast conclusions specifically about your book, because I feel unqualified to do so until I read it in its entirety--and I've stated so explicitly multiple times, both here and on the blog. I do, however, reserve the right to draw conclusions about the things I have read in the genre, and about general trends I see in the genre. As should every other avid reader of fantasy fiction. So why you think that last comment was about you, and not about the genre in general, is beyond me. But for the sake of clarity, I'll say it again: that comment was not about you; it was about things going on the genre in general. :)
 
Mark,

See:

I said it in the previous post, but I'll say it again for the sake of clarity--my post was inspired by the review of PoT that I linked to at the beginning of this thread, but I am not trying to comment specifically on PoT or Mark Lawrence, but rather about general trends in fantasy fiction.

For clarification.
 
Beyond you?

Ah. Ok.

Perhaps you need to mull over it a bit.

No, I don't think I'll need to do that.

Of course there were explicit references to a text in that reply to Brian--to a scene in a book by Joe Abercrombie, and the controversy that emerged as a result.

So unless your actual name is "Joe Abercrombie," then yes, it is still very much beyond me. ;)
 
No, I don't think I'll need to do that.

Of course there were explicit references to a text in that reply to Brian--to a scene in a book by Joe Abercrombie, and the controversy that emerged as a result.

So unless your actual name is "Joe Abercrombie," then yes, it is still very much beyond me. ;)

You don't understand something but you don't feel you need to consider it...

Interesting.

But you're trying to persuade writers who don't understand your objections to consider them.

You think that's air you're breathing?
 
Its really easy for us to decide personally whats good read and believable and whats too much grimdarkness because of lazy,weak writing.

You cant talk about someone whose novel is grim,bleak by synopsis before you know if the writing is for you and you believe the story for what it is suppose to be. Why i have tried all these authors and giving up on all but two of them.

The debate in this thread has been too much comparing content and too little rating of the authors ability to tell these kind of stories.

That's the point I've been trying to make (in the blog post as well as here)--for me at least, it all boils down to whether the grim darkness helps the author do something profound and interesting. Understandably, people will have different ideas of what's profound and interesting, as well as different ideas of how successful an author is at pulling it off. I second Brian's assertion earlier than Richard Morgan is a writer who, at least in The Steel Remains, doesn't manage to pull it off. RSB is another. But then the first three Song of Ice and Fire novels are, to me, the epitome of pulling grimdark off. And they are very, very grim.
 
There is a view on the Chrons that you shoot down the argument, not the man. Your comment seems dismissive to another member who has presented an interesting argument in an unfailingly polite fashion.

There's a view in the Lawrence that how dismissive a comment seems depends entirely on which side of the argument you have settled.

You clearly didn't feel the other member's refusal to mull over what I said to be dismissive, but did feel my pointing out that refusal and its irony was.

I, on the other hand, disagree with you.
 
There's a view in the Lawrence that how dismissive a comment seems depends entirely on which side of the argument you have settled.

You clearly didn't feel the other member's refusal to mull over what I said to be dismissive, but did feel my pointing out that refusal and its irony was.

I, on the other hand, disagree with you.

And you did so politely, thankyou. No, his response to you was polite, he even used a winky smiley. Yours wasn't, in my opinion, for what it s worth in the Lawrence. :) (not much, I am guessing. :))
 
And you did so politely, thankyou. No, his response to you was polite, he even used a winky smiley. Yours wasn't, in my opinion, for what it s worth in the Lawrence. :) (not much, I am guessing. :))

Now we're moving on to politeness rather than dismissiveness? Soon we'll be counting angels on pin heads, which is - I fear - what most of the thread has been about in any case. Whether X & Y are 'artistically justified' ... which is just another way of saying whether the book worked for you or not.

I bail entirely and leave with the observation that when you title a thread 'Prince of Thorns', reference a bazillion page essay on that book, write your own mockingly titled blog on 'grimmy grimmy grimdark' referencing both book and essay again, state that you read a preview of the book (which will have included all 61 words of 'rape scenes'), and then start talking about the 'good' and the 'bad' grimdark... the author of said book may feel that whatever disclaimers you happen to drop into some other comment ... you were probably lined up on them.
 
There is a view on the Chrons that you shoot down the argument, not the man. Your comment seems dismissive to another member who has presented an interesting argument in an unfailingly polite fashion.

Yeah, I think I'm withdrawing from that interaction for the time being. Free time is limited and there are more interesting things to do than keep writing the same disclaimer over and over again. It's there for anyone to see, both here and at the blog.

Glad you found the argument interesting (whether or not you agreed with it). :)
 
The "amazing" article struck me as one of those pieces where a book/film/song is getting some discussion so the columnist chooses it as an example of some long held pet theory and selectively quotes and examines passages that fit the theory.

Either that or it's an application for a Pseuds Corner by someone who can't quite get published in the Guardian (UK specific)

I read PoT and assumed it was, in part, Mark's fantasy take on "sociopath as protagonist", along the lines of "The Killer Inside Me", "Ameican Psycho" even "Darkly Dreaming Dexter". it's quite a long established literary convention (a lot of people would mark Heathcliff as a sociopath - though obviously the label didn't exist at the time).

On the grimdark argument - life for the vast majority of people who have ever lived has been ugly, subject to random disease, starvation, violence, conscription and slavery ( and that's just for those luck enough to be born men!). If a writer aims for a fantasy setting that more accurately parallels an equivalent period in our history it's going to be a lot less pleasent than Tolkien's "English villages as they never were". I'll take the darkness over bland extruded fantasy product every time.
 
life for the vast majority of people who have ever lived has been ugly, subject to random disease, starvation, violence, conscription and slavery ( and that's just for those luck enough to be born men!). If a writer aims for a fantasy setting that more accurately parallels an equivalent period in our history it's going to be a lot less pleasent than Tolkien's "English villages as they never were". I'll take the darkness over bland extruded fantasy product every time.

But do writers find themselves writing about these things because of the medieval (or quasi medieval) setting they have chosen, or do they choose the setting because it allows them to write about disease, starvation, violence, etc.? And if readers are so keen to read about these things, because that's how life is for the vast majority of people, why not read real-life accounts by people who have actually experienced these things? Or why not read contemporary fiction based on those accounts? There are plenty of places where such things are happening right now. Why not read about them without the fantasy trappings? Not much good as escapist entertainment? A little too close to home?

Why are most stories about rape told from the male point of view and written by male writers? The male character does it or sees it and then moves on. A female viewpoint character has to live with the trauma, the consequences. But again, perhaps not so good as escapist literature?

Why, if we want to see something new, don't we get out of the Middle Ages altogether? Staying in the same playground, even if the games are more dangerous and the players are getting more badly hurt, is not the same thing as growing up and gaining a more mature perspective on the world -- which may be long overdue. Of course there is Steampunk and Urban Fantasy, which do present some different perspectives on the human experience, but they don't feed the appetite for violence, nor support the narrow mindset that fantasy must take place in a quasi-Medieval setting.


I wonder if violence and rape are becoming as much a cliché as the battle between good and evil? After a while, taking the old stereotypes and turning them on their heads ceases to be original. One of these days, people might start referring to books that are relentlessly dark and violent as "extruded fantasy product."

None of what I am saying refers to Mark Lawrence's books, because I have not read them nor do I intend to -- the very things that some people say they like about them don't match up with what I care to read about -- but to the general trends some people have been discussing here.
 
Teresa, a great post, embodies everything that irritates me about the tendency in fantasy towards grimdark and of course its timeless obsession with the mediaeval period. Can't help but feel this might merit its own thread though since it's unrelated to Prince of Thorns? A worthy discussion topic imo.
 
Can't help but feel this might merit its own thread though since it's unrelated to Prince of Thorns? A worthy discussion topic imo.

I think you are right. It might take some of the heat out of the discussion, and no one need feel singled out, or like they are being personally attacked.

If you start such a thread, I will post in it.

I should point out that when I said

Why, if we want to see something new, don't we get out of the Middle Ages altogether?

I really did mean "we." I have written books in a medieval setting, and I'm doing it again. There have been other things in between, but I'm back in the Middle Ages right now.
 
Why, if we want to see something new, don't we get out of the Middle Ages altogether?

Thats a question i have asked myself as a reader who wants to read heroic,epic fantasy so many times.

Why must even the authors i enjoy reading always get stuck in Middle Ages. It has come so far that any other setting than Middle Ages pseudo Europe is so fresh and almost worth trying authors i wouldn't normally read.
 
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